shorofsky ([info]shorofsky) wrote in [info]spn_heavymeta,

IMToD Q

In My Time of Dying Question.
I was watching IMToD and had a thought so I ran with it and now would very much appreciate you guys’ input on my madness. I hope there is method in it for you, since there was for me.
John’s time of Death was pronounced as 10.41, so I thought that might mean something and I looked at the usual suspects (the apostles) and found these two quotes from John and Matthew and thought that they both fit nicely with the arc in later seasons. I realize that it reads like grasping at straws to find further proof that Krip’s a genius, but it really just seems to fit really really well.

John 10:41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of were true.

-Selling his soul to save Dean’s life could be interpreted as a miracle, but obviously wasn’t.
-Telling Dean that he may have to kill Sammy is the truth.
-Many look to John for help with monsters and ghosts, etc.

Matthew 10:41 Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward.

-The prophet speaks the truth aka that Dean might have to kill Sammy
-Dean believed John even if he dislikes the notion thus receiving the prophet’s reward
-The first seal will be broken by a righteous man spilling blood in hell
-Both John and Dean are righteous men

EDIT pr. 20 June:

So, I got all caught up in the thought of Bible quotes recently, and thought I'd play around with that some more.

What if Season 5 had 22 episodes for there to be a Bible reference that would fit perfectly with the ending of the show Arc?

I went and had a look and here's what I found:

1 thessalonians 5:22

"5:22 Stay away from every form of evil."

- Dean's hiding in Lisa's house, ribs are branded and he's probably surrounded by hex bags.
- Dean's no longer hunting with Bobby

Matthew 5:22

"But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment."

John 5:22

"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:"

- John did put everything onto his son and look where it got him.

Isaiah 5:22

"Woe unto [them that are] mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink"

- Last thing we see Dean doing is drinking Whisky in 5:22. This one I mainly put here because it's funny to think of coincidences...
Tags: 2x01_in_my_time_of_dying, general_meta

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  • 17 comments

[info]etoile444

June 13 2010, 13:11:57 UTC 1 year ago

As far as I can tell, the John they speak of is John the Baptist. John came before Jesus to proclaim ihim. It could be argued that John Winchester was the lesser man who came before Dean who was the truly righteous man.

I don't have a great opinion of John and consider Dean to be the righteous man.

Of course, Castiel reminds us that humans got the Bible all wrong anyways! ;)

And I don't realy think Kripke was thinking of the New Testament when he chose that time, but it was fun to analyze the Bible verse.

[info]shorofsky

June 20 2010, 21:30:11 UTC 1 year ago

I agree completely that John is a piece of crap and that Dean obviously is far more of a righteous man than daddy dearest ever was.

LOL to Castiel's line about the Bible as interpreted by humans;-)

[info]axbatwilo

June 13 2010, 13:23:30 UTC 1 year ago

Well I can't remember where I read it, but I did read somewhere that the time of John's death was a voluntary reference to a verse of the Bible. So you're right on. (Now that I think about it, maybe someone said it in a DVD voice commentary.)

[info]shorofsky

June 20 2010, 21:28:29 UTC 1 year ago

I don't remember it from the commentary, but that'd make sense! Awesome if that's really what they were after!

[info]ramblin_rosie

June 13 2010, 13:57:27 UTC 1 year ago

Hrm. Well, ten is a number of judgment and of completion in medieval number symbolism. I'm not sure about 41. It's a prime number; one more than 40, which has loads of Biblical significance on its own, especially as the length of a period of trial, as well as being four times ten; and *this* audience would recognize it as one short of 42, the answer to life, the universe, and everything. So one could also read that time of death as a sign that John is being judged for giving up just before he achieves what he's been striving for all his life. Or it could mean that John, having lived all the way through 10:40, has come to the end of his earthly trials. (That brings up all kinds of curious symbolism with Hell time, which is faster than Earth time by a ratio of 120:1; John makes his escape after ten months or a hundred years, 100 being a number of completion; and so on and so on, and scooby dooby doo on....)

Then again, sometimes a number is just a number!

[info]shorofsky

June 20 2010, 21:27:46 UTC 1 year ago

LOL, I agree! Sometimes a number is just a number, but other times, numbers mean things. I love your explanation of the numbers in history! You could probably write a great meta on the numbers of Spn!

[info]yourlibrarian

June 13 2010, 18:27:46 UTC 1 year ago

Interesting catch!

[info]shorofsky

June 20 2010, 21:26:16 UTC 1 year ago

Thanks! I sooo hope they actually meant that with the time reference because it would rock!

[info]blacklid

June 13 2010, 21:09:22 UTC 1 year ago

John 10:41! Nice! I don't think you're crazy at all. I've come across some pretty intricate ones. Even wardrobe gets in on it: certain clothes are "coded" are certain dramatic situations. You'll find stuff all over the place. The Beer66 sign in The Benders was flipped upside down to say Beer99 in The Dark Side of the Moon, they use their own names and photos for artwork -- things like that. It's just a game among themselves to make things fun and interesting, and most of them don't cop to it or know what one department did versus another one, if they're asked. I think they'd be surprised how much we see. Yours is a script reference, so it's highly likely that it came directly from the writer's room, and they have a history of playing with numbers. Very good catch, in my opinion!

[info]shorofsky

June 20 2010, 21:25:43 UTC 1 year ago

Thank you so much! I love our show for so many reasons and one of them is definitely the many littles clues and injokes they embed in each episode. It's brilliant! And so much fun to try and catch them, too!

[info]dodger_winslow

June 13 2010, 23:08:34 UTC 1 year ago

I think that first one is freakin brilliant. And probably what they meant.

[info]shorofsky

June 20 2010, 21:24:36 UTC 1 year ago

Thank you so much! I hope they were thinking that, actually, coz it'd be so friggin' fantastic!

Anonymous

June 20 2010, 20:51:33 UTC 1 year ago

I didn't have anything particular to add to the discussion until now. BUT, you did prime me to notice this week during the TNT repeat of Faith the show pointing out that Dean was healed at 4:17. Have you played around with that number in the same way?

[info]annspal

June 20 2010, 20:54:02 UTC 1 year ago

Sorry for not realizing I wasn't signed in.

[info]shorofsky

June 20 2010, 21:23:53 UTC 1 year ago

Hmm, I hadn't thought about that, but now you mention it, there might be something there!

I went and looked up a bunch of the usual suspects and got to thinking that this might work:
Romans 4:17 "As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations."[a] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were."

- the father of many nations being the allknowing God who judges
- He who believes: Dean
- He who gives life to those who are dead: the reapers controlled by Sue Ellen

Or maybe this:
1 Peter, 4:17:
�For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?�

- An image of Dean's mixed feelings at being saved through someone else's life being taken?

Or this:

Daniel 4:17
"4:17 This matter [is] by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men."

-the watchers: the reapers? Keeping tabs on humans for God
- Sue Ellen's demise as proof that the most High rules in the world after all?
- The basest of men: who other than Dean with all his bad habits and vices? And was he not set above all else by God to help defeat Lucifer?

Or this:

Genesis 4:17
"And Cain had relations with his wife and she conceived, and gave birth to Enoch; and he built a city, and called the name of the city Enoch, after the name of his son"

- The bloodline going back to the brothers Cain and Abel who begat Enoch, whose sigils came to mean so much to our boys.

Or this:

James 4:17
"Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin."

-Dean is without a doubt a good man who believes that all evil needs to prevail is for good men to stand idly by even when the actual action comes at great personal risk and price.

Or maybe this one:

John 4:17:

"In this love has been made perfect among us,
that we may have boldness in the day of judgment,
because as he is, even so are we in this world."

Anonymous

June 21 2010, 03:25:42 UTC 1 year ago

You've got some good possibilities here to think about - so thanks for doing that brainwork to get me started.

Before I posted, I was drawn to the last one you put out there (particularly in context of the verses on either side of it).

I John 4:16-18 - 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17 Herein is our love made perfect that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear; because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. (King James Version)

I see many of the series' recurring themes as boiling down to FEARS (of truth, of judgment, hell, of the insufficiency of human love) and the power of PERFECT LOVE (Godly or familial) to heal and make right.

[info]annspal

June 21 2010, 03:26:58 UTC 1 year ago

oops, again... not sure why I'm not staying logged in. :(
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